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July 16th, 2007, 05:58 PM
scott fitlin

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Guy:

GM has it 100% again though- for the mass market it's going to be awful junk made acceptable by DSP.

Except for the fact that companies like Crown, Lab Gruppen, BSS, Lake, XTA all manufacture dedicated pro audio componets utilizing digital technologies, and top of their class, supposedly, and I have listened to ALL of them, and still prefer Class AB amps to the lightweights they offer these days, and analog crossovers to even the most expensive of the DSP processors!

Now, my beef is that we are some 20 years from the time they originally really began to push digital audio to the public, remember the late 80,s? CD,s! Perferct Sound Forever!

At least the transition from Tubes to SS in the late 60,s thru early 70,s were achieved. By the time we hit the mid 70,s we had SS gear thgat actually sounded good. Even though many thought it would never happen.

But digital hasnt accomplished satisfying results in as reasonable a time period!

How MUCH longer do we have to wait? Another 20 years, WTF, I'll be 66 by then. I would like to have it while I can still do something with it! I can open a nightcvlub while in my 40,s, even 50,s, but by the time Im almost 70, I think Im gonna want to take it easy!

HOLY S__T! Thats scary, I can actually see that it isnt that far till Im almost 70!

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July 16th, 2007, 06:05 PM
GM

Quote:

Originally posted by scotty j:
But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!

You're 'preaching to the choir'! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ Ignoring marketing hype for the moment I believe you're missing the point that business is market driven (otherwise they wouldn't be in business), so it's the market that's demanding high power systems because they want their speakers as small as practical for whatever reason, which (no) thanks to Hoffman's Iron Law requires we trade something for it, or very stiff suspensions (low Vas) in this case. Bottom line WRT box size Vs wide BW clarity, etc., you 'can't have your cake and eat it too', at least not without DSP.

WRT manufacturers wanting higher SPLs, that's market driven also since we're amplitude oriented animals and our hearing acuity flattens out with increasing SPL, so don't 'shoot the messenger' so to speak, they're just trying to make a decent living satisfying the masses.

Anyway, all this ultimately boils down to the masses wanting a commodity as cheap/small as current technology allows and the more they demand, the more compromised the commodity becomes until at some point an incredibly low standard of equilibrium is reached (witness B@#$) where only mass quantities of DSP can make any sense out of it.
July 16th, 2007, 07:54 PM
scott fitlin

The 'Unwashed Masses' they dont know about the big horn systems, and the time when dinosuars ruled the earth simply because they werent around for it. But, when they hear it properly done, every twentysomething audio buff that thought he loved the new age, goes on his quest for Altec, Vintage Crown amps, and old analog crossovers.

When they hear it, they know they havent heard anything else like it.

Remember 1990-1993? Horns they said! WHY do you want that? We have direct radiators now, better dispersion ( omni directional which really means your bass comes out of the woofer and cabinet and rolls back right around the side of the cabinet instead of projecting out to the dancfloor or audience where it was supposed to go in the first place ), higher power handling, and horns are beamy and they honk! I always said they didnt have what horns had. No where close.

Late 90,s and early 21stCentury, look at the resurgence horns have made, highly efficient, great transient response, high directivity ( BEAMY ), and realistic musical sound.

Yes, I agree, its MARKETING. But give the " Unwashed Masses " a clean shave, and GOOD audition of a proper horn system with analog processing and watch them turn into educated buyers scouring ebay and other used markets for the secret sound!
July 16th, 2007, 10:03 PM
scott fitlin

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom Brennan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Old Guy:

JBL has a harsh edge, even the aluminum ones. They are better with Radian diaphragms, designed by an ex Altec guy Renkus.

Man, that's funny. I was massacred over on the Lansing Heritage site for merely suggesting that JBL bodies sound good with Radians. I couple of those jaspers got REALLY sound up, silly geese.<hr /></blockquote>Ill tell you something, I have some radian diaphragms, and they are smoother with todays recordings than JBL,s diaphragms.

But there is a price to pay! They arent as dynamic as JBL,s diaphragm. The JBL part has that POP, but, I also recognize that music, and recordings are so vastly different than what they were when JBL was manufacturing the 2440, and 2441.

But, to be truthful, I like the Radian replacements, its smoother sounding with todays music, and I like this! I am converting. And, you certainly cant go wrong with the price! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
July 17th, 2007, 02:21 AM
selmerdave

Quote:

Originally posted by scotty j:
Hey Old Guy, remember I told you my Amperex,s wewre made in W. Germany? They were made for Amperex, to Amperex specification, in the Telefunken factory!

Perhaps they were Amperex-branded Siemens? It seems unlikely to me that Telefunken would have made up a set of tooling different from their own just to make a run of tubes for somebody else. Getting off topic here, but I like dutch Amperex's, Siemens and (shh..) Mazdas better than Teles although they're not bad either. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ For 12ax7's anyway.

Dave
July 17th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Old Guy

I hadn't considered the "worn out tolling"- just figured it was **** new tooling. But I think GM is spot on- the financial motivation isn't there.

The Russians have a tendency to "boiler plate" rather than precision machine. Their tubes are probably rugged, but hardly precision.

The Germans on the other hand- precision and rugged. But German tubes would cost a fortune.

High Tube amp prices and computerised tooling may combine to make small runs of precision items profitable- that would be the only hope.
July 17th, 2007, 03:58 AM
scott fitlin

I dont know GM, yes, on one hand the technology available should relegate all the old stuff to the attic, or the storage rooms.

But, for whatever reason, I find much of todays gear to just plain ol not sound GOOD, despite whatever they claim it has, does, or will do.

To me, digital audio, and high powered electronics just do not replicate the reproduced sound with any authenticity, just SPL!

And again, with ALL todays high technology, a real instrument played by a skilled musician will BLOW AWAY ANY electronic sounds, ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! And WITHOUT any electrical amplification OR LOUDSPEAKERS.

However, my idea od listening to music may be different from todays idea of listening to music, bottom line is once I begin listening to music, the specs have no influence over my hearing, nor do the graphs and freq plots. At the end of the day, it all boils down toi what my ears hear, and HOW it sounds to me! And DID I enjoy what I heard?

If I didnt, what does it matter what the specs say, or how technologically advanced it is, at that point?

Kind of sort of somthing like food, once you have overcooked the chicken and its dry and hard, too bad, its ruined, no digital time alignment, or phase correction gonna help it then!

No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!

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July 17th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Tom Brennan

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Guy:

JBL has a harsh edge, even the aluminum ones. They are better with Radian diaphragms, designed by an ex Altec guy Renkus.

Man, that's funny. I was massacred over on the Lansing Heritage site for merely suggesting that JBL bodies sound good with Radians. I couple of those jaspers got REALLY sound up, silly geese.
July 17th, 2007, 04:00 AM
scott fitlin

Quote:

Originally posted by GM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scotty j:
But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!

You're 'preaching to the choir'! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I got very vocal with my opinions, but i want you to know I respect you and your seemingly endless amount of knowledge of all things audio to the utmost! Your one smart cookie, I just dont agree with everything.

But, you know what? This is a great thread, and great conversation, and was the final straw for me to go back to what I know I like best, Altec sound.

So, for me it has been good!
July 17th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Steve Mac

I'd always understood it this way:
12AX7 = 12AX7A = 7025
12ax7 is the tube
7025 is the military spec number
12ax7a and 7025 are one in the same and are 12ax7's that meet a more stringent qualification.

Am I wrong?

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